CHUCK TODD:
This Sunday, assault on democracy.
((RIOT CROWD NOISE))
Egged on by President Trump...
PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
We're going to walk down to the Capitol. Because you'll never take back your country with weakness. You have to show strength.
CHUCK TODD:
Thousands of pro-Trump rioters storm into the Capitol building.
((RIOT CROWD NOISE))
CHUCK TODD:
Overwhelming security.
RIOTERS:
Stop the steal. Stop the steal.
CHUCK TODD:
Members of Congress cowering in the House gallery.
REP. PETER WELCH:
We were just told that there has been tear gas in the rotunda and we're being instructed to each of us get gas masks.
CHUCK TODD:
Five people dead. The speaker's office breached, many others trashed. Scenes more out of a dictatorship than a democracy. Now, the aftermath. Democrats moving to impeach the president a second time.
REP. JAMES CLYBURN:
I think the American people have seen enough, and they are ready for us to do the job of impeaching this man.
CHUCK TODD:
Cabinet secretaries and other officials resigning:
MICK MULVANEY:
I can't stay here, not after yesterday.
CHUCK TODD:
The president, permanently banned from Twitter, insisting he and his supporters will not go away. A democracy in crisis. My guests this morning: former Trump Chief of Staff Mick Mulvaney, the chairman of the House Democrats Hakeem Jeffries and Republican Senator Pat Toomey of Pennsylvania. Joining me for insight and analysis are: NBC News Capitol Hill correspondent Kasie Hunt, NBC News senior Washington correspondent Hallie Jackson, former Homeland Security Secretary Jeh Johnson, and Wall Street Journal columnist Peggy Noonan. Welcome to Sunday and a special edition of Meet the Press.
ANNOUNCER:
From NBC News in Washington, the longest-running show in television history. This is a special edition of Meet the Press with Chuck Todd.
CHUCK TODD:
Good Sunday morning. It was almost exactly four years ago at his inauguration that Donald Trump stood at the US Capitol and said "This American carnage stops right here and stops right now." On Wednesday, that American carnage came to the Capitol, inspired by a president trying to deny his successor's inauguration. Make no mistake, what happened that day was an insurrection against the United States government by thousands of pro-Trump rioters who stormed and sacked the Capitol aided by elected Republicans trying to overturn Joe Biden's victory with a big lie and inspired by a president of the United States, who urged that mob on then later that day excused the violence with a lie, again calling the election fraudulent. Since Wednesday President Trump has been largely out of sight, muzzled by Twitter and Facebook, his only public appearance a walk-it-back video, scripted by someone else, in which he told those same rioters they will pay if they broke the law. So what now? Democrats are preparing to impeach President Trump for a second time Speaker Nancy Pelosi promising to move forward if Mr. Trump does not resign. There has been talk of removing the president through the 25th Amendment, but there doesn't appear to be enough support for that. And Mr. Trump is even said to be discussing trying to preemptively pardon himself or he could be talked into resignation early to receive a more legally sound pardon from a President Pence. Wednesday's madness was what happens when supporters take President Trump both seriously and literally. Still, this was as predictable as it was shocking. In fact don’t take my word for it, take the word of Senator Marco Rubio who said this in 2016 about supporting candidate Trump something he has since done since 2016. "You mark my words, there will be prominent people in American politics who will spend years explaining to people how they fell into this."
((RIOT CROWD NOISE))
CHUCK TODD:
Days after he provoked a violent mob to storm the Capitol, a single article of impeachment is expected to be introduced on Monday -- accusing President Trump of "incitement of insurrection" if he does not resign.
PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
We are going to walk down, and I will be there with you. Because you will never take back our country with weakness. You have to show strength.
((RIOT CROWD NOISE))
CHUCK TODD:
This video shows the moment rioters reached the door of the Speaker's lobby - leading to the House chambers. Lawmakers hiding in fear. Capitol Police brandishing guns in an armed standoff.
REP. PETER WELCH:
We were just told that there has been tear gas in the rotunda and we're being instructed to each of us get gas masks that are under our seats.
CHUCK TODD:
Dozens have now been charged after Wednesday's rampage, including: Richard Barnett of Arkansas - photographed in Speaker Pelosi's office. Lonnie Coffman of Alabama - whose vehicle allegedly contained 11 Molotov cocktails, a handgun and an assault rifle -- he was carrying two more guns -- and Jacob Anthony Chansley - aka Jake Angeli, of Arizona - who confronted law enforcement, carrying a spear. Protester Ashli Babbitt was fatally shot by a police officer, now on administrative leave. Capitol Police officer Brian Sicknick also died from injuries, after pro-Trump rioters struck him in the head with a fire extinguisher, according to police.
TIMOTHY GALLAGHER:
This is an act of domestic terrorism. So this is what the FBI will be focused on 24/7.
CHUCK TODD:
The president on Wednesday telling the mob --
PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
This was a fraudulent election but we can't play into the hands of these people. We have to have peace. So go home, we love you.
CHUCK TODD:
-- only taping a scripted about-face after pressure.
PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
My focus now turns to ensuring a smooth orderly and seamless transition of power.
CHUCK TODD:
Then reversing course again on Twitter: tweeting his supporters "will have a giant voice long into the future. They will not be disrespected or treated unfairly", saying he will not be going to Biden's inauguration. Hours later, Twitter permanently suspended his account "due to the risk of further incitement of violence." Now Democrats are pushing to impeach him a second time.
REP. NANCY PELOSI:
He has done something so serious -- that there should be prosecution against him.
REP. JAMES CLYBURN:
I think the American people have seen enough.
CHUCK TODD:
Republican Senator Lisa Murkowski - calling on President Trump to step down, quote: "I want him out. He has caused enough damage."
SEN. BEN SASSE:
I will definitely consider whatever articles they might move because as I've told you, I believe the president has disregarded his oath of office.
CHUCK TODD:
But Senate Republican leader Mitch McConnell is making it clear impeachment proceedings could not start until January 19th in the Senate, a day before Biden is sworn in.
SEN. ROY BLUNT:
I think it's a ridiculous discussion to have. You don't have the time for it to happen, even if there was a reason.
CHUCK TODD:
And joining me now is President Trump's former chief of staff, Mick Mulvaney, who, himself, just resigned as special envoy to Northern Ireland as a result of Wednesday's riot. Mr. Mulvaney, welcome back to Meet the Press. And to viewers and yourself, yes, I have a rough voice, a lot of broadcasting during the week and a lot of hot water and lemon this weekend. Mr. Mulvaney, let me start with – look, you, you worked with him very closely. What is his state of mind right now?
MICK MULVANEY:
Chuck, thanks very much for having me. I’m sorry you’re feeling under the weather. I don't know. I know what it would have been like eight months, a year ago. I have seen the president in similar circumstances, certainly nothing of this gravity. But I've not told folks this story before about how we had an incident during the impeachment when he was accused in social media or by some politicians of interfering with a witness while she was testifying. I know a little bit about witness intimidation, didn't think it was a legal problem, but we knew it was a political problem. And I went to him, privately, closed the door and said, “Mr. President, this is a problem. We need to fix it.” He pushed back a little bit, but then he called the lawyer. Then he called Kevin McCarthy, then I think he called Ivanka and he called a bunch of his friends in New York. And over the course of the next hours, he took data and information and opinions from a bunch of different people, and then he pivoted and changed course. That’s the president that I knew. That’s the reason I thought that we'd never be here. I thought the president would be presidential. Clearly, that system has broken down. And whether or not the president is different or the people advising him are different or both, I don't know what's going on inside the Oval Office now, and I don't know what's going on inside the president's head.
CHUCK TODD:
So, you say he's different. But in fairness -- and you probably knew this was coming -- in 2016, Congressman Mick Mulvaney called then candidate Donald Trump “a terrible human being,” said he would be “disqualified from office in an ordinary universe,” because of what you said were atrocious things he had said. Do you wish you had listened to Congressman Mulvaney?
MICK MULVANEY:
Chuck, I'm very familiar with that comment. I think if you look at that in context that was on the eve of or the day after the Access Hollywood tape and some of those terrible things the president said, the “locker room talk,” as he describes it. That's different. Policy differences are different. Stylized, stylistic differences are different. Things you don't like about a person's personalities are different than what happened on Wednesday. Wednesday was a fundamental threat to the United States. It speaks to what makes us American. It's an existential type of thing. It's not, it’s not superficial. It's deep and it's real and it's different, which is why you saw so many resignations this week, and didn't see them over the course of the last couple years. Wednesday changed everything.
CHUCK TODD:
A lot of people would push back at you and say, "Character is destiny." And in fact, I do -- you've used this eight-month marker. I want -- his rhetoric, incendiary rhetoric goes back far greater than just the last few weeks. Here's some examples.
[BEGIN TAPE]
PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
I love the old days. You know what they used to do to guys like that when they were at a place like this? They'd be carried out on a stretcher, folks. If she gets to pick her judges, nothing you can do folks. Although, the Second Amendment people, maybe there is. I don't know. Proud boys, stand back and stand by.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
You see where I’m going here. It is one of these things -- you are basically saying, “I didn't see this version of Donald Trump.” A lot of us, with all due respect, said, “Yeah, we, we saw -- this version of Donald Trump, to us, didn't change.” This was the guy we saw celebrating violence in ‘16, and it just sort of carried through to, sadly, this inevitable conclusion.
MICK MULVANEY:
Yeah. And I know it's, I know it's easy for folks now who've never liked the president or always disagreed with his policies or really disliked him as a person to say, “Why didn't everybody see this coming?” But keep in mind, so many of us that worked with him every single day didn't see him through a filter. In fairness, you saw him oftentimes -- you've had some face to face with him -- but most people saw him through the filter of a media that didn't like him very much. We saw him every single day. The reason that I wrote in The Wall Street Journal six weeks ago that I thought the president would leave presidentially is because I had evidence to that end. I had stories. I had background. I had seen that type of president, and I never thought I'd see what I saw on Wednesday. Yes, the rhetoric was very high and very fiery. You and I both know, however, that American politicians do this on a regular basis. I can pull you similar clips of Maxine Waters telling people to take to the streets. It's different though, when as you said in your entry, that people took him literally. I never thought I'd see that. I never thought I’d see a day in our country where people from any side of the political spectrum would storm the Capitol in order to intentionally stop the Constitutional transfer of power, which is part of what was happening on Wednesday. That's what's different, Chuck, that the country is different than I expected. --
CHUCK TODD:
I understand that.
MICK MULVANEY:
-- Maybe we can talk about that as well, but yeah, it's not the same as it was in those previous examples.
CHUCK TODD:
Well, I do also want to give you a chance to respond. Your predecessor, as chief of staff, laid the blame on what he called the "let Trump be Trump" mindset. Here's his explanation, John Kelly.
[BEGIN TAPE]
JOHN KELLY:
My replacement -- well, let me just say, this is what happens. Yesterday and other things he's done in the last two years comes as a result of letting Trump be Trump.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
All right, I apologize for that. I'll read you the quote there. "My replacement - well, let me just say, this is what happens when you said let Trump be Trump.” I understand you had some audio issues there. I did too. I think the audience did hear it, for what it's worth, Mr. Mulvaney. So the "let Trump be Trump," mindset, in hindsight, do you wish you had figured out how to create more barriers, more guardrails?
MICK MULVANEY:
No. Not barriers, not guardrails. The president was the elected leader of the nation. It's not the job of the chief of staff to undo that. It's the job of trying to help the president be successful, which I think we were able to do when I -- we had tremendous successes. We had record low rates of unemployment, we had no new foreign wars for the first time in my memory during a presidential term. We had tremendous things to look back on as a success because we were able to work with the president, let him be himself, but also work together to be successful.
Keep in mind John Kelly, and I respect John, he's a tremendous American. But he didn't resign when he was the chief of staff of the president. He warned against yes men. By the way, that is a good and sound warning. And one of the things I'm afraid of is that the West Wing is different now than when John or I was there. The president used to love debate. He would love to get information from all sorts of different sides. I'm not sure that's happening now. And if there just are people there reaffirming and reamplifying what they think he wants them to say.
CHUCK TODD:
Should Donald Trump be ostracized from the Republican Party as you know it?
MICK MULVANEY:
I think it's going to happen anyway. I think the ideas will live on. The ideas of the Republican Party are bigger than one man. But I think if you have any role at all in what happened on Wednesday, that you sort of, you don't deserve to lead the party anymore. The ideas are bigger than the people. But I think, I think the voters will take that into consideration. I can't tell you, when I was elected in the, in the Tea Party wave of 2010, sort of the precursor of the Trump movement, and I can't tell you the number of people who've supported me for a decade who’s saying that Wednesday was a bridge too far. They love Trump, they love the policies, they were really pleased with the successes of the first four years, but he lost them on Wednesday. And I think that's, I think that's the right thing. I think people need to know that what happened on Wednesday is just different.
CHUCK TODD:
Mick Mulvaney, the former White House chief of staff and budget director under President Trump, thank you for coming on and sharing your perspective with us, sir.
MICK MULVANEY:
Thanks, Chuck.
CHUCK TODD:
Appreciate it. With House Democrats prepared to move on a second impeachment as early as tomorrow, I'm joined by Congressman Hakeem Jeffries of New York. He is the chairman of the House Democrats. Congressman Jeffries was the Democrats’ floor manager during Mr. Trump's initial impeachment trial. Congressman, welcome back to Meet the Press. So let me just start with this -- what, what would have to happen this week that would somehow stop the House of Representatives from impeaching the president?
REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES:
Good morning, Chuck. The assault on the Capitol was a violent insurrection that was incited and encouraged by Donald Trump. It was an attack on the Congress, an attack on the country and an attack on the Constitution. And Donald Trump represents a clear and present danger to the health and safety of the American people, as well as our democracy. And that's why House Democrats are united in demanding and seeking his immediate removal. Now, there are three ways that that can be brought about. Vice President Pence and a majority of the Cabinet can step up and do the right thing and invoke the 25th Amendment. And we're going to continue to push them to do that. We can also impeach Donald Trump and he can be convicted and removed by the Senate that should come back into town to deal with this constitutional crisis and the existential threat to our democracy that's sitting at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue. Or the Republican enablers who are around Donald Trump can demand that he resign, similar to what took place in the aftermath of Watergate.
CHUCK TODD:
Well, I'm curious, by the way, so do you think there is -- if he does resign, you would remove the impeachment, it sounds like? And the reason I'm asking that scenario is he could resign, but if the goal is to prevent him from ever holding federal office again, how would you go about that without impeachment?
REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES:
The goal at the present moment is to address the existential threat that Donald Trump presents at this time. Every second, every minute, every hour that Donald Trump remains in office presents a danger to the American people. You know, Donald Trump may be in the Twitter penalty box, but he still has access to the nuclear codes. That's a frightening prospect. And so, all of our efforts at the present moment are focused on his immediate removal. That's the right thing to do. The House is a separate and coequal branch of government. We have a constitutional responsibility to serve as a check and balance on an out of control executive branch. Donald Trump is completely and totally out of control, and even his long-time enablers have now come to that conclusion.
CHUCK TODD:
The one member of House leadership that may have sympathetic views as yours is Liz Cheney on the Republican side of the aisle. Have you had any talks with her or like-minded House Republicans about joining this effort?
REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES:
Well, Liz Cheney and I worked closely together in the immediate aftermath of the insurrection and the assault on the Capitol just to make sure that the members of our respective caucuses were safe and secure and received as much information as possible during the unfolding events and in the immediate aftermath of what took place. She's involved in the process talking to her Republican colleagues about how they are going to deal with what's taking place on their side of the aisle. I'll let her speak to that. I do know that several Republicans have publicly, and some privately, indicated that Donald Trump needs to be removed and this long national nightmare needs to end. Part of the problem here, Chuck, is that Donald Trump and so many Republicans in the House and the Senate perpetrated the big lie that Joe Biden did not win the election and that the presidency was being stolen. The American people have spoken. More than 80 million people voted for Joe Biden. The states have spoken. More than 300 Electoral College votes in an Electoral College landslide. The courts have spoken. More than 50 different decisions, many written by Trump-appointed judges, all concluding that Joe Biden won the election in clear and convincing fashion. But the big lie was perpetrated. And that is what led to the insurrection, the coup d'etat attempt and the assault on the Capitol. And so the Republicans are going to have to deal with that situation moving forward once we address Donald Trump.
CHUCK TODD:
Are you going to feel safe at the inauguration?
REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES:
I will feel safe at the inauguration. And it's important for all of us to be there in the same way that it was important for Democrats and Republicans to return to the House floor and the Senate floor to complete our constitutional responsibilities and certify the election of Joe Biden because what the insurrectionists and the seditionists are attempting to do is halt normalcy, halt democracy, halt the peaceful transfer of power. And that is what January 20th at high noon represents. And so I will feel safe. I have confidence in our law enforcement, in the Secret Service who are in charge of security, confidence in our Speaker to make sure that members are safe. And we’ll be there, power will be transferred. And I look forward to Joe Biden and Kamala Harris' leadership in unifying the country, crushing the coronavirus, providing direct relief to the American people and building back better.
CHUCK TODD:
Yeah. Are you confident that Capitol Police or somebody else didn't help with this?
REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES:
Well, we need a comprehensive investigation in terms of how it all unfolded. Clearly, the Capitol Police were under-resourced and underprepared. But there were a lot of brave men and women, including Officer Sicknick who fought hard, one of whom lost their lives, many of whom are injured. And so I'm going to lift them up today, but also make sure that those responsible for preparations are held accountable, some of whom I have already indicated they're going to resign. But we need a full and complete investigation to ensure the safety and security of the American people, the safety and security of our staffs moving forward, the safety and security of members of Congress and the protection of the Capitol, which is really the cathedral of our democracy in this great republic. And never again should we see the type of assault that occurred this past Wednesday.
CHUCK TODD:
Congressman Hakeem Jeffries, a nightmare of a week. I'm glad we got through it. Thank you for coming on and sharing your perspective with us. Up next --
REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES:
Thank you, Chuck.
CHUCK TODD:
-- why were Republicans silent for so long about the threat President Trump posed? I'm going to talk Republican Senator Pat Toomey when we come back.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. It was two years ago that a man sent 16 packages containing pipe bombs to Democrats and other perceived Trump opponents. In October, the FBI arrested 13 people in a connection with a plot to kidnap Michigan's Democratic governor, Gretchen Whitmer. Virginia's governor was also on the kidnapping list. And throughout the Trump presidency, journalists have been routinely threatened by Trump supporters. Sadly, I can attest to that on a nearly weekly basis. In the wake of Wednesday's events, it's fair to ask why so many people remained silent about the obvious threat President Trump's incendiary rhetoric posed. So joining me now is Republican Senator Pat Toomey of Pennsylvania. Senator Toomey, thank you for joining us. Been a rough week. Welcome back --
SEN. PAT TOOMEY:
Good morning, Chuck.
CHUCK TODD:
-- to Meet the Press. Let me start with this. There's calls for resignation, impeachment, removal by way of the 25th Amendment. You yourself said he's committed impeachable offenses. In your view, what is the most appropriate way for Donald Trump to exit office?
SEN. PAT TOOMEY:
Well, I think the best way for our country, Chuck, is for the president to resign and go away as soon as possible. I acknowledge that may not be likely. But I think that would be best. Does not look as though there is the will or the consensus to exercise the 25th Amendment option. And I don't think there's time to do an impeachment. There’s ten days left before the president leaves anyway. I think the best thing would be a resignation.
CHUCK TODD:
The issue of impeachment. You have said he committed impeachable offenses, and there's clearly the timing issue.
SEN. PAT TOOMEY:
Right.
CHUCK TODD:
But one of the goals -- one of the penalties that comes with impeachment, this is almost as much about removing him from current office, but it would prevent him from ever holding federal office again, assuming a majority Senate vote, if he's convicted, would also then do that. Should that be the goal, how to make sure this man never holds federal office ever again in that -- because of what he did on Wednesday?
SEN. PAT TOOMEY:
Yeah. So Chuck, a couple of things. One, it's not clear the Constitution permits impeachment. conviction and prohibition against ever serving again, which is a separate vote, that that's permitted after a person has left office, which is what would have to happen here. So whether that could be done in a binding fashion is really an open question. So that's number one. Number two, I would certainly hope, and I actually do believe, that the president has disqualified himself. I don't think he's a viable candidate for office ever again because of the outrageous behavior in the post-election period. So those would be my two points.
CHUCK TODD:
Throughout his term, Senator, you were on here quite a few times when, uncomfortably, he would say something or do something where I would ask you about his rhetoric. And you had a consistent answer. And I want to show some folks those answers. Here we go.
[BEGIN TAPE]
SEN. PAT TOOMEY:
I don't spend a lot of time trying to evaluate and analyze why the president comes to the conclusions he comes to. I don't spend a lot of time focusing on the president's tweets and things that the president says. What I focus more on is what is he going to actually do. I think it's a long way to attributing any kind of real link between what the president might say or tweet and the extraordinary type of madness that leads someone to massacre people.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
Now, look, in fairness, I also want to play what you said on the Senate floor this week. Here's that.
[BEGIN TAPE]
SEN. PAT TOOMEY:
We witnessed today the damage that can result when men in power and responsibility refuse to acknowledge the truth. We saw bloodshed because a demagogue chose to spread falsehoods and sow distrust of his own fellow Americans.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
Senator, you know the question that's coming. And I'm sure you've heard it from a lot of people. Do you regret not speaking out sooner? And did you underestimate the threat of his rhetoric?
SEN. PAT TOOMEY:
Chuck, I think it's important to make a distinction between the president's behavior prior to the election, and his behavior after the election. For years, the president said ridiculous things. He had -- he lied frequently. Many objectionable things. If they were sufficiently objectionable, I did publicly weigh in. And I did many, many times. But he tweeted hundreds of times a day many days. And I still don't think that I should've gone back and attempted to be his Twitter editor. After the election, he took this to an entire different place, orders of magnitude different. I mean, come on. Recruiting thousands of Americans from around the country to descend on the Capitol, promising a wild ride and inciting them to attack the Capitol building so as to prevent the Constitutional responsibility of the vice president and the Congress to complete the peaceful transfer of power after an election, all so that he could try to stay in office. That is wildly beyond anything that any of us, well, certainly, that I ever contemplated and anything that he did before. So I don't think that this unbelievable behavior of Wednesday, for instance, could've been reasonably expected.
CHUCK TODD:
Well, you say that and, with all due respect, an entire primary campaign was waged against him in 2016 where some of the very people that support this president still, like Ted Cruz, called him a pathological liar, worried that his rhetoric was going to go in another -- and many people didn't believe it. You yourself, you already explained to me, you didn't really believe this was going to go there. And I guess a lot of --
SEN. PAT TOOMEY:
That's right.
CHUCK TODD:
-- other folks go, "Why?" How did you miss it?
SEN. PAT TOOMEY:
Well, you know, how did half of America miss it, or more than half of America?
CHUCK TODD:
Yeah.
SEN. PAT TOOMEY:
I'm quite sure that many Democrats that voted for Joe Biden didn't expect that this was going to happen, Chuck. And it's because the president spiraled down into a kind of madness that was different. I'm sorry if people don't acknowledge that. I think what he did this past week is wildly different from the offensive tweets that were common during his presidency. And I don't think that those tweets clearly indicated that this was coming.
CHUCK TODD:
What should, what kind of responsibility do you hold Senators Hawley and Cruz for what happened on Wednesday?
SEN. PAT TOOMEY:
Look, I think the -- they're going to have a lot of soul searching to do. And the problem is they were complicit in the big lie, this lie that Donald Trump won the election in a landslide and it was all stolen. They compounded that with this notion that, somehow, this could all be reversed in the final moments of the Congressional proceedings. So that's going to be, that’s going to haunt them for a very long time.
CHUCK TODD:
I know you are a -- not crazy about what you might consider overreach. Would it be overreach to kick either man out of the Senate?
SEN. PAT TOOMEY:
I think so. I think they're going to pay a very heavy price. What they did was, it was technically permissible under the Senate rules. Their voters will decide whether they get another term. And they're both young enough men that I'm sure they would certainly like to do that. So I think it should be left to the voters of their state to decide what their fate is.
CHUCK TODD:
You regret your vote for president now?
SEN. PAT TOOMEY:
No. Knowing what I knew then, I think, as the 75 million Americans making this evaluation between this radicalization of the Democratic Party and an administration that had very significant successes, I understand. I -- this -- it is a rational decision. Nobody could've anticipated what has happened, I don't think, subsequent to the election.
CHUCK TODD:
Senator Pat Toomey, Republican from Pennsylvania, really appreciate you coming on and sharing your perspective with us. Thank you, sir.
SEN. PAT TOOMEY:
Thanks for having me, Chuck.
CHUCK TODD:
You got it. When we come back, one of the most extraordinary weeks in American history. The panel is next.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. The panel is joining us. NBC News Capitol Hill correspondent Kasie Hunt, NBC News senior Washington correspondent Hallie Jackson, former Homeland Security Secretary Jeh Johnson and Wall Street Journal columnist Peggy Noonan. Hallie, I want to start with you in the moment here. You're, you’ve covered this administration for the almost four years now and I understand you have some news to share about what is the relationship these days between Vice President Pence and President Trump.
HALLIE JACKSON:
In a nutshell, Chuck, it's not good. I have learned from a source familiar with this that not only did President Trump not reach out to Vice President Pence as the events of Wednesday unfolded -- and remember, the vice president was in a secure location with, by the way, members of his family. His wife, his daughter, his brother had all come to be in attendance. -- But I'm told that the president has not called Vice President Pence since then. It is a striking detail and I think it reflects the real nadir of the relationship between these two men right now and how acrimonious it's become. Of course, the president spent days, Chuck, as you know, pressuring Vice President Pence publicly to do something that he just did not have the constitutional authority to do on Wednesday. And further, Chuck, just to advance the story more, it wasn't just the public pressure. I'm told that as far back as December 15th, mid-December, so weeks ago, there were behind-the-scenes maneuvering to try to essentially get the vice president to do what the president wanted. Calls arranged with attorneys walking through different scenarios that the vice president, in the eyes of the president, could potentially take even though, again, as the vice president made very clear, he did not have the authority to do so, Chuck. As far as the 25th Amendment, listen, I'm told that the vice president just does not think that that is practical. That's what we've been hearing and reporting from people close to him, allies, et cetera, but there is real concern and anger here about how this moves forward.
CHUCK TODD:
Kasie Hunt, how bipartisan is impeachment going to be this week?
KASIE HUNT:
That's the question, Chuck. And I think we are moving toward it becoming a little bit more bipartisan, honestly. And listening to that interview that you just did with Senator Toomey, I think, underscores that. We're told that there may have been some lawmakers who perhaps voted with the president on the Electoral College question partly because they were afraid for their own safety and the safety of their families, that the calculation wasn't necessarily just a political one, which I think gives you a little bit of a sense of just how dramatic this was. Now, the question will be how political is it perceived to be going forward? There’s an increasing sense that Nancy Pelosi does intend to move forward with the impeachment articles this week, but that they may not send them over to the Senate right away because Mitch McConnell has essentially made clear that there's no way to, that he will be able to or be willing to force the levers in such a way that would start the trial before Democrats take control of the Senate. So, the potential is that trial could be unfolding in the first weeks of the Biden administration. The question is does the president-elect want that to be what they do first? So, they may hold those articles of impeachment in the House until perhaps weeks or months later. But you know, I think it's important to note there seems to potentially be enough votes in the Senate to convict right now, Republican votes at this moment when this is still so fresh.
CHUCK TODD:
Wow.
KASIE HUNT:
Obviously, political calculations change, but, I mean, they need 17 votes, Chuck, and there were 92 Republicans in the Senate who voted to say, "No, President Biden, President-elect Biden won this election." So, I don't think people are willing to be extraordinarily out front about that quite yet and there are a lot of questions about the impeachment process, but I cannot overstate the level of anger among Senate Republicans.
CHUCK TODD:
All right, Peggy and Jeh, your job here is to answer this question. What should happen in the next ten days? Jeh, you first.
JEH JOHNSON:
Chuck, first, I have to take issue with what Senator Toomey said about us not seeing this coming. I've written several op-eds over the last four years about how President Trump's rhetoric makes unacceptable behavior acceptable and violence inevitable. My principle concern right now, Chuck, at this moment, is the domestic security situation, which is to say the least tense and should be on high alert. I believe what President Trump did on Wednesday was worse than anything he did around Russia, anything he did around Ukraine, any phone call he made to the Georgia Secretary of State. If I were in the House, I would vote to impeach. If I were in the Senate, I would vote to convict. I do, however, question the necessity, given the current climate, of holding that vote over the next week and a half, particularly when McConnell has said that the trial will not occur until after January 20. I think we need -- I think there are additional considerations here. The goal is to disqualify him from holding federal office. There is precedent for holding such a trial after the person leaves office.
CHUCK TODD:
Peggy, what's your, what's your prescription?
PEGGY NOONAN:
My read, quickly, is that we are in a crisis. This coming week could not be more consequential, more weighted with history. I -- from everything I hear, there are still active conversations going in Washington with regard to the 25th Amendment and whether or not the president should be essentially judged to be incapacitated. That is amazing enough. Or, another road, second impeachment. He's already been impeached once. I would take any of the above because I believe the president should leave. I believe he is a danger. But very quickly on impeachment, my thoughts are this. First of all, he's dangerous. He should be impeached because he's showing every signs that on the way out, he'd like to pull down a few more pillars. We don't know how he's spending his days, who's around him. It doesn't seem to be a lot of people or a lot of first-rate people and real serious counselors, so there's that danger. I think he breached the Constitution when his supporters breached the grounds of the Capitol. So, I think there's just, just straight out reason to remove him. I think future presidents may need to know what the exact boundaries are for presidential behavior. It wouldn't be bad to show them this week. I also think, you know, President Trump, at this point, he simply deserves exceptional dishonor and a second impeachment would be an exceptional dishonor. I hope the Republican party does not miss this moment. They should move forward. I think the impeachment should be bipartisan. It will be the only way for it to be really pretty fully accepted, but understood and respected by history, both parties said, "No more."
CHUCK TODD:
It -- a bipartisan impeachment threat is what got Nixon to resign. Perhaps if a bunch of Republicans grew some spines in the next 24 hours and they knew it was coming, maybe, just maybe, he would take that route. All right, I'm going to pause right there. When we come back, the ways in which the far-right is trying to blame Wednesday's violence on the far-left. It's propaganda and a big lie in real time, and that's next.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. Wednesday's violence was shocking. Thousands of pro-Trump protesters wearing MAGA hats or QAnon gear storming the Capitol, trashing the building, and leaving five people dead and many more injured. But even before it was possible to fully take stock of the damage done by the pro-Trump mob, the far-right propaganda media ecosystem began peddling a counter-narrative, that it was Antifa, the anti-right-wing movement, that sacked the Capitol. Absurd? Yes, of course. Harmless? Not at all. Almost immediately after reports that the Capitol had been breached, televangelist Mark Burns, a longtime Trump supporter, tweeted, "This is not a Trump supporter. This is a staged Antifa attack." The accompanying photo is of a popular QAnon follower, Jake Angeli, who is known as the Q-Shaman. Mr. Trump's son, Eric, liked Burns's tweet. According to an NBC News analysis, about 7,000 posts on Twitter referred to Antifa followers posing as Trump rioters without any evidence. Some of the most popular tweets had thousands of likes and retweets. And from social media, those same talking points migrated to conservative TV talk.
[BEGIN TAPE]
SARAH PALIN:
I think a lot of it is the Antifa folks.
LAURA INGRAHAM:
They were likely not all Trump supporters and there are some reports that Antifa sympathizers may have been sprinkled throughout the crowd.
GREG KELLY:
We see serious indications that Antifa and outside infiltrators could be involved in all of this.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
And when Congress reconvened after the mayhem that night to finish counting the electoral votes, Florida Republican Congressman Matt Gaetz had the audacity to blame Antifa on the House floor. And yet, in truth, the FBI said Friday there is no indication Antifa took part in any part of the attack. And for days, Trump supporters and QAnon followers made their January 6 intentions crystal clear. The phony, don't blame us narrative is just one of many being given oxygen by a news environment that allows audiences to live in their own alternative reality comfort zones. And this is not happening on the dark web. It is in plain sight, on channels that you and your family interact with every day and somehow claim to be fair. When we come back, the destruction we saw on Wednesday was unnerving. Was what we saw the beginning or the end? Stay with us.
[BEGIN TAPE]
RUDY GIULIANI:
Let’s have trial by combat.
DONALD TRUMP, JR.:
Stand up and fight!
REP. MO BROOKS:
Today, is the day American patriots start taking down names and kicking ass.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
That was the rhetoric that the Trump protesters heard before the mob was created and stormed the Capitol. Kasie Hunt, what is the future of Mo Brooks, Josh Hawley, and Ted Cruz in the United States Congress?
KASIE HUNT:
Well, Chuck I think it's still an open question. But again, I think that their colleagues felt in a way that they have not experienced it before, even after four years of the Trump administration. They were personally in danger. And the rhetoric that these, some of their fellow members as well as the president of the United States offered on Wednesday is what led directly to the mob, and it was extraordinarily -- it was an extraordinarily close call in the Senate, Chuck. The doors were shut just one minute, essentially before the mob reached the doors into the chamber, and some of those heroic actions are what protected the place. I think that, while many critics will say, of course, "It's too little too late for the Republican Party," I think Senator Toomey reflected the depth of the change that has happened there. And I think, you know, for those of us who have covered or worked in those hallowed halls for a very, very long time, it's impossible to overstate the degree to which this shook faith in a system that everyone is supposed to be bought into, Chuck.
CHUCK TODD:
And that's where I want to go here, guys. Is this the beginning of something or the end of something? Jeh Johnson, I want you to react to something that Adam Serwer wrote in The Atlantic on Thursday. "The Washington Post described the insurrectionists who stormed the Capitol as ‘would be saboteurs of a 244 year old democracy. ‘ But true democracy in America's only 55 years old, dating back to 1965, the year the Voting Rights Act guaranteed suffrage, at least on paper, to all citizens regardless of race." That we actually had a -- fifty-five years has been a precarious multi-racial democracy in this country. What say you, Jeh Johnson?
JEH JOHNSON:
Chuck, of the many images, shocking images from Wednesday, I think the one that most jolted me was the image that was shown early on this program of the Confederate flag being paraded through the U.S. Capitol. Now, I have ancestors, my great, great grandmother's brother fled slavery in Virginia when he was a teenager. And here he is, and enlisted in the U.S. Union Army to prevent exactly that from happening. We fought an entire Civil War to prevent that from happening.
CHUCK TODD:
You know, Peggy Noonan, the amount of anti-Semites, racists that were frankly, I guess, mainstreamed by Donald Trump over the last few years has rattled a lot of people's concern about whether this democracy is going to hold up. What say you?
PEGGY NOONAN:
Oh, I say America with its barbaric yawp can shock us and upset us very often. We do manage to hold on, and I expect that will be true. But I think for a lot of people, the indelible image of this week is the idea that the Capitol, this great and grand building, the one we put on postcards if you visit Washington, D.C. and write home, that it could be overrun by vandals in a moment. That an action could be taken and elected leaders are fleeing for their lives. I think this was a shock to so many people, especially to the young, to whom we have to show we don't allow this. We stop that right now. We stopped it this week.
CHUCK TODD:
I hope so. Hallie Jackson, what happens to Donald Trump on January 21st if he doesn't leave sooner --
HALLIE JACKSON:
He doesn't go anywhere, Chuck. Physically, obviously, he's gone from the White House. He'll be presumably in Florida. But I have to tell you, this is a president who is so defiant. These calls, these ideas that perhaps he would resign, it is at this exact moment in time almost unthinkable to see how the president would currently retreat in the face of pressure, something he has almost never before done, and certainly not when the stakes are this high. I thought it was interesting that Senator Toomey on your show earlier described it as not viable that the president could have another shot in 2024. There are people in and around the White House who believe the same, that the president has, in essence, disqualified himself. Perhaps he will say he will run, but there is not a real sense that he could have an actual shot, although, Chuck, that people who support him, the people who he has activated in essence over the last four years, they are with him until the end. And that group is not going anywhere. The president will take advantage of a media ecosystem, not mainstream media --
CHUCK TODD:
Right.
HALLIE JACKSON:
-- but an ecosystem that will give him oxygen for years --
CHUCK TODD:
Alright.
HALLIE JACKSON:
-- to come.
CHUCK TODD:
If that is what happens and this Republican Party allows Donald Trump to still be an influential figure, it will end up in the ash, ash bin of history. That's all for today. Thank you for watching. We're going to be back next week, this democracy intact because if it's Sunday, it's Meet the Press.